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	<title>Comments on: iPhone Developers and Language Snobbery</title>
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	<link>http://madebymany.co.uk/iphone-developers-and-language-snobbery-002161</link>
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		<title>By: muz</title>
		<link>http://madebymany.co.uk/iphone-developers-and-language-snobbery-002161#comment-2894</link>
		<dc:creator>muz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madebymany.co.uk/?p=2161#comment-2894</guid>
		<description>My question from  all those guys supporting  Monotouch is that

Have you developed any application which is approved by Apple   and is available on App Store??

When you guys have  made that then you can argue  on  merits of Monotouch.
Moreover, they charge a lot for  their License.

I am a objective-c developer and  c# developer.
I really found  monotouch  very frustrating experience.  
I dont think  developer who only  knows  Monotouch and c#  can develop    iphone Apps</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My question from  all those guys supporting  Monotouch is that</p>
<p>Have you developed any application which is approved by Apple   and is available on App Store??</p>
<p>When you guys have  made that then you can argue  on  merits of Monotouch.<br />
Moreover, they charge a lot for  their License.</p>
<p>I am a objective-c developer and  c# developer.<br />
I really found  monotouch  very frustrating experience.<br />
I dont think  developer who only  knows  Monotouch and c#  can develop    iphone Apps</p>
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		<title>By: Toby</title>
		<link>http://madebymany.co.uk/iphone-developers-and-language-snobbery-002161#comment-2473</link>
		<dc:creator>Toby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madebymany.co.uk/?p=2161#comment-2473</guid>
		<description>I agree with your point that we (those of us developing in or learning to develop in cocoa touch) should completely write off the possibility that Adobe might put out a half decent attempt at this yet. I can see a long line of reasons running through my head as to how they won&#039;t, most of these stem from how bad flash sucks as it is, but I agree that it would be an act of snobbery to just dismiss it knowing as little as we do about it and given that it isn&#039;t finished yet.

I do however agree with Jeff&#039;s blog post that you reference much more wholly than yours. There are defiantly allot of good reasons to spend the time learning the tools apple has supplied, and there allot of lessons that are absolutely essential that everyone working on the platform learn that the process will short-cut. From what it seems so far, the UI tools are half baked, the resulting ipa is bloated and in efficient, and though there are many great flash developers out there, there is little to no great flash applications out there. When they bring it out and the app store gets flooded with every bit of nonsense someone has made in flash over the last 5 years being compiled for iPhone with no thought at all and good apps are hanging in a que for review for months I think it will reflect badly on Apple, the iPhone development community, and the platform itself, the user won&#039;t even consider Adobe.

I&#039;ll admit my attitude towards Flash has been bad for a long time despite the fact I think it is a powerful too with great potential for what it was originally designed to do. The problem I have with flash is that it give people who don&#039;t have a clue the means to do something semi complex with great ease and not so great implementation, then because they don&#039;t have a clue they run wild. There are enough people who have half a smattering of common sense and can actually write good code shoving absolute crap like fart apps etc onto the platform, I don&#039;t feel like I would want to happily invite what has turned into a plague on the web into the platform as well even if it will bring with it a handful of extremely talented developers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your point that we (those of us developing in or learning to develop in cocoa touch) should completely write off the possibility that Adobe might put out a half decent attempt at this yet. I can see a long line of reasons running through my head as to how they won&#8217;t, most of these stem from how bad flash sucks as it is, but I agree that it would be an act of snobbery to just dismiss it knowing as little as we do about it and given that it isn&#8217;t finished yet.</p>
<p>I do however agree with Jeff&#8217;s blog post that you reference much more wholly than yours. There are defiantly allot of good reasons to spend the time learning the tools apple has supplied, and there allot of lessons that are absolutely essential that everyone working on the platform learn that the process will short-cut. From what it seems so far, the UI tools are half baked, the resulting ipa is bloated and in efficient, and though there are many great flash developers out there, there is little to no great flash applications out there. When they bring it out and the app store gets flooded with every bit of nonsense someone has made in flash over the last 5 years being compiled for iPhone with no thought at all and good apps are hanging in a que for review for months I think it will reflect badly on Apple, the iPhone development community, and the platform itself, the user won&#8217;t even consider Adobe.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll admit my attitude towards Flash has been bad for a long time despite the fact I think it is a powerful too with great potential for what it was originally designed to do. The problem I have with flash is that it give people who don&#8217;t have a clue the means to do something semi complex with great ease and not so great implementation, then because they don&#8217;t have a clue they run wild. There are enough people who have half a smattering of common sense and can actually write good code shoving absolute crap like fart apps etc onto the platform, I don&#8217;t feel like I would want to happily invite what has turned into a plague on the web into the platform as well even if it will bring with it a handful of extremely talented developers.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Probert</title>
		<link>http://madebymany.co.uk/iphone-developers-and-language-snobbery-002161#comment-2468</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Probert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 13:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madebymany.co.uk/?p=2161#comment-2468</guid>
		<description>My post &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.lyraspace.com/2009/10/06/iphlash-application-nightmare-scenario-1/#comments&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; is my take on this and it is purely a UX issue. If your app is eye-candy or a game with limited UI and no requirements to integrate with the OS then why not use Flash to build it as long as it performs well. The problem is with half-baked attempts to mimic the UI components that Apple provide and wild deviations from the HIG that will dilute the high standards everyone expects from the device. You&#039;re right though, people will vote with their feet ... hopefully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My post <a href="http://blog.lyraspace.com/2009/10/06/iphlash-application-nightmare-scenario-1/#comments" rel="nofollow">here</a> is my take on this and it is purely a UX issue. If your app is eye-candy or a game with limited UI and no requirements to integrate with the OS then why not use Flash to build it as long as it performs well. The problem is with half-baked attempts to mimic the UI components that Apple provide and wild deviations from the HIG that will dilute the high standards everyone expects from the device. You&#8217;re right though, people will vote with their feet &#8230; hopefully.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Winston</title>
		<link>http://madebymany.co.uk/iphone-developers-and-language-snobbery-002161#comment-2396</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Winston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 19:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madebymany.co.uk/?p=2161#comment-2396</guid>
		<description>I decided to put together some choice words on the subject at 
http://blog.alexwinston.com/2009/10/lets-not-kid-ourselves.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I decided to put together some choice words on the subject at<br />
<a href="http://blog.alexwinston.com/2009/10/lets-not-kid-ourselves.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.alexwinston.com/2009/10/lets-not-kid-ourselves.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brent Schooley</title>
		<link>http://madebymany.co.uk/iphone-developers-and-language-snobbery-002161#comment-2395</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent Schooley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 19:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madebymany.co.uk/?p=2161#comment-2395</guid>
		<description>As someone who codes in .NET in my day job and then comes home to an &quot;all-Mac all the time&quot; household, I must say that I appreciate the options that MonoTouch has provided.  As you can see in my UITabBarController screencast at CodeSnack, I have studied Cocoa and Objective-C.  In fact, I picked it up before the iPhone even existed and even before Objective-C 2.0 came out.  I, like James, can see this from both angles very clearly.

I have been trying to stay out of what I see as a religious war on this topic.  Life is too short for that.  After reading Martin&#039;s tweets on this topic (see @pilky... you&#039;re welcome ;)  ), I thought I was going to come here only to find more of the same from him: all potential MonoTouch developers are lazy bastards because they don&#039;t want to use native APIs.  Well, all those native APIs are available.  As MonoTouch developers we are using UIKit, Foundation, MapKit, etc.  You name it, we can use it.  If there&#039;s an Objective-C library you want to use, you can bind it.  And you mentioned C - we have P/Invoke for that too.  The world, as they say, is your oyster.

Are there times when Apple&#039;s tooling might make life easier at the moment?  Certainly.  Right now MonoDevelop (the IDE for MonoTouch development) is able to pick up changes made in Interface Builder (yes, we use Interface Builder), but Interface Builder does not pick up changes made in MonoDevelop.  So the seamless to&#039;ing and fro&#039;ing that you get from XcodeIB is not quite there yet (I suspect it will be eventually).  However, when you add an outlet in Interface Builder a property is automatically code-gen&#039;d back in MonoDevelop and that&#039;s a pretty nifty timesaver.

I suppose what I&#039;m hoping is that we can all get along.  I love Cocoa and Objective-C, but I also love .NET and C#.  Given that MonoTouch has made it possible to use all of the iPhone&#039;s native APIs so that user&#039;s get a fantastic native experience, can&#039;t we put aside our differences in preference?  In the end, isn&#039;t it all about providing high quality applications to the user?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who codes in .NET in my day job and then comes home to an &#8220;all-Mac all the time&#8221; household, I must say that I appreciate the options that MonoTouch has provided.  As you can see in my UITabBarController screencast at CodeSnack, I have studied Cocoa and Objective-C.  In fact, I picked it up before the iPhone even existed and even before Objective-C 2.0 came out.  I, like James, can see this from both angles very clearly.</p>
<p>I have been trying to stay out of what I see as a religious war on this topic.  Life is too short for that.  After reading Martin&#8217;s tweets on this topic (see @pilky&#8230; you&#8217;re welcome ;)  ), I thought I was going to come here only to find more of the same from him: all potential MonoTouch developers are lazy bastards because they don&#8217;t want to use native APIs.  Well, all those native APIs are available.  As MonoTouch developers we are using UIKit, Foundation, MapKit, etc.  You name it, we can use it.  If there&#8217;s an Objective-C library you want to use, you can bind it.  And you mentioned C &#8211; we have P/Invoke for that too.  The world, as they say, is your oyster.</p>
<p>Are there times when Apple&#8217;s tooling might make life easier at the moment?  Certainly.  Right now MonoDevelop (the IDE for MonoTouch development) is able to pick up changes made in Interface Builder (yes, we use Interface Builder), but Interface Builder does not pick up changes made in MonoDevelop.  So the seamless to&#8217;ing and fro&#8217;ing that you get from XcodeIB is not quite there yet (I suspect it will be eventually).  However, when you add an outlet in Interface Builder a property is automatically code-gen&#8217;d back in MonoDevelop and that&#8217;s a pretty nifty timesaver.</p>
<p>I suppose what I&#8217;m hoping is that we can all get along.  I love Cocoa and Objective-C, but I also love .NET and C#.  Given that MonoTouch has made it possible to use all of the iPhone&#8217;s native APIs so that user&#8217;s get a fantastic native experience, can&#8217;t we put aside our differences in preference?  In the end, isn&#8217;t it all about providing high quality applications to the user?</p>
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		<title>By: James Higgs</title>
		<link>http://madebymany.co.uk/iphone-developers-and-language-snobbery-002161#comment-2392</link>
		<dc:creator>James Higgs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madebymany.co.uk/?p=2161#comment-2392</guid>
		<description>No, the man in the street doesn&#039;t care about Garbage Collection, but if you had to bet which technique would introduce more bugs out of Garbage Collection and native C calls, which would you pick? ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the man in the street doesn&#8217;t care about Garbage Collection, but if you had to bet which technique would introduce more bugs out of Garbage Collection and native C calls, which would you pick? ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Pilkington</title>
		<link>http://madebymany.co.uk/iphone-developers-and-language-snobbery-002161#comment-2391</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Pilkington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madebymany.co.uk/?p=2161#comment-2391</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d argue the man on the street doesn&#039;t care about Garbage Collection either, but I agree these are implementation details. I mean I&#039;d love to be proved wrong in all of this and for Mono Touch to be the first API that is a good native citizen while not being the native API, but we&#039;ll have to wait and see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d argue the man on the street doesn&#8217;t care about Garbage Collection either, but I agree these are implementation details. I mean I&#8217;d love to be proved wrong in all of this and for Mono Touch to be the first API that is a good native citizen while not being the native API, but we&#8217;ll have to wait and see.</p>
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		<title>By: James Higgs</title>
		<link>http://madebymany.co.uk/iphone-developers-and-language-snobbery-002161#comment-2390</link>
		<dc:creator>James Higgs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madebymany.co.uk/?p=2161#comment-2390</guid>
		<description>@Martin - agreed on how cross-platform stuff normally sucks. I for example, *loathe* AIR apps for that very reason. But I think you&#039;ll agree that the man in the street doesn&#039;t give a crap about &quot;dropping down to straight C&quot;. I think my point about that stands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Martin &#8211; agreed on how cross-platform stuff normally sucks. I for example, *loathe* AIR apps for that very reason. But I think you&#8217;ll agree that the man in the street doesn&#8217;t give a crap about &#8220;dropping down to straight C&#8221;. I think my point about that stands.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Pilkington</title>
		<link>http://madebymany.co.uk/iphone-developers-and-language-snobbery-002161#comment-2389</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Pilkington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madebymany.co.uk/?p=2161#comment-2389</guid>
		<description>I concede that to some degree MonoTouch is a valid alternative, but (and correct me if I&#039;m wrong) the only way to get MonoTouch working within the AppStore restrictions is to remove a lot of dynamism from it. And for the features you gain like Garbage Collection, you lose features such as dropping down to straight C with nothing special needed. From an objective point of view there is as much to lose as there is to gain.

Now maybe I&#039;m jaded by the many appalling cross platform APIs and programs on desktop computers, none of which really fit in or work very well. Maybe MonoTouch will be different, being only for the iPhone. But from everything I&#039;ve seen on any platform to date in terms of trying to work around native APIs has led to inferior quality applications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I concede that to some degree MonoTouch is a valid alternative, but (and correct me if I&#8217;m wrong) the only way to get MonoTouch working within the AppStore restrictions is to remove a lot of dynamism from it. And for the features you gain like Garbage Collection, you lose features such as dropping down to straight C with nothing special needed. From an objective point of view there is as much to lose as there is to gain.</p>
<p>Now maybe I&#8217;m jaded by the many appalling cross platform APIs and programs on desktop computers, none of which really fit in or work very well. Maybe MonoTouch will be different, being only for the iPhone. But from everything I&#8217;ve seen on any platform to date in terms of trying to work around native APIs has led to inferior quality applications.</p>
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		<title>By: James Higgs</title>
		<link>http://madebymany.co.uk/iphone-developers-and-language-snobbery-002161#comment-2388</link>
		<dc:creator>James Higgs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://madebymany.co.uk/?p=2161#comment-2388</guid>
		<description>@Martin:

&lt;blockquote&gt;But one of the most important business needs of any developer should be to provide a great user experience&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Absolutely. But I don&#039;t think you&#039;ve shown that native tools are the only way to do that. As Miguel points out, here is no way to tell whether an app has been written in MonoTouch or not since it&#039;s using the exact same libraries. The only difference is that the compilation process to produce the binary is different. How does that suggest a poorer user experience?

I&#039;d also be very interested in your (and other Objective-C devs&#039;) feedback on Miguel&#039;s point: objectively, MonoTouch is *better* than Cocoa Touch since it implements everything Cocoa Touch does, plus Garbage Collection and so on.

As an existing Cocoa developer, naturally Objective-C and Xcode feel right. What makes you think that someone looking at Miguel&#039;s comment is a lazy developer who doesn&#039;t want to learn a new language, and not just one who wants to write bug-free iPhone apps with a great user experience?

Thought experiment: if someone made a compiler so that you could target .NET with Objective-C (there probably is one, actually), how would using that language be &#039;lazy&#039; if you already knew it compared to learning, say, C#. I think the point is that .NET developers are used to seeing the platform as one thing, and the language as another. You can target .NET in pretty much any language ever conceived, and all languages are (or at least can be) equal citizens. 

If MonoTouch delivers what Miguel says it does, how is it in any way lazy or likely to lead to a poor user experience?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Martin:</p>
<blockquote><p>But one of the most important business needs of any developer should be to provide a great user experience</p></blockquote>
<p>Absolutely. But I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ve shown that native tools are the only way to do that. As Miguel points out, here is no way to tell whether an app has been written in MonoTouch or not since it&#8217;s using the exact same libraries. The only difference is that the compilation process to produce the binary is different. How does that suggest a poorer user experience?</p>
<p>I&#8217;d also be very interested in your (and other Objective-C devs&#8217;) feedback on Miguel&#8217;s point: objectively, MonoTouch is *better* than Cocoa Touch since it implements everything Cocoa Touch does, plus Garbage Collection and so on.</p>
<p>As an existing Cocoa developer, naturally Objective-C and Xcode feel right. What makes you think that someone looking at Miguel&#8217;s comment is a lazy developer who doesn&#8217;t want to learn a new language, and not just one who wants to write bug-free iPhone apps with a great user experience?</p>
<p>Thought experiment: if someone made a compiler so that you could target .NET with Objective-C (there probably is one, actually), how would using that language be &#8216;lazy&#8217; if you already knew it compared to learning, say, C#. I think the point is that .NET developers are used to seeing the platform as one thing, and the language as another. You can target .NET in pretty much any language ever conceived, and all languages are (or at least can be) equal citizens. </p>
<p>If MonoTouch delivers what Miguel says it does, how is it in any way lazy or likely to lead to a poor user experience?</p>
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